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Public Forum on 422 Addresses Concerns
State representatives asked for public input at an open forum on Tuesday.
State representative Mike Vereb, R-Montgomery County, talks to folks after the forum.
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Hundreds of folks at a meeting on Tuesday agreed U.S. Route 422 is a dangerous, congested mess.
They also said there's no cheap or easy way to solve the route's problems and shot down the notion to toll the road as a way to generate revenue.
The 422 concerns were discussed at a public forum hosted by state representatives Mike Vereb, R-Montgomery County; Marcy Toepel, R-Montgomery County; Tom Quigley, R-Montgomery County and Warren Kampf, R-Chester and Montgomery counties. The event was held at Pope John Paul II High School in Royersford.
Prior to the forum, Kampf and Vereb discussed some of their concerns.
Kampf said he's lived in the 422 area since he was a baby.
"(422) has gotten progressively more crowded, especially at rush hour," he said. "I oppose tolling the roadway."
A proposal to toll 422 would cost area residents "substantial sums" of money, he said.
"It's like a form of double taxation," Kampf said.
Vereb said he can't imagine a "local road" being tolled.
"I think what all of us are concerned about ... the traffic is almost unbearable as it is going in toward Philadelphia," Vereb said. "It's a dangerous road. It's a four-lane main street ... It has people pretty upset."
Indeed.
During the forum, which lasted over two hours, some folks in the roughly 400-member audience at various times cheered, booed and yelled when certain ideas were raised.
"Doing nothing is not an option that I choose," said Montgomery County Commissioner Joe Hoeffel. Folks in the crowd shouted in anger after his comment.
Quigley said tolling 422 is, "Another opportunity to cost (small business owners) money." People applauded that sentiment.
But mostly, the audience asked questions -- which they wrote on cards during the event -- that Vereb read aloud and the panel tried to answer.
Some of the possible remedies discussed included:
• Tolling could operate similar to the PA Turnpike E-ZPass system.
• Tolls could be spread out to allow free local travel, and/or lower tolls could be charged during weekend or off-peak hours.
• Tolls could raise roughly $60 million per year and increase over time.
• A new state gas tax could help pay for work needed on Route 422.
• The Norristown train line could be extended to the Reading and Philly areas in an effort to reduce car traffic. This could cost roughly $370 million.
• Of the estimated $750 million needed to improve 422, $243 million has been programmed into the state's Dept. of Transportation budget over the next eight years.
"There's not enough (PennDOT) money to fix 422," Hoeffel said.
No plan could be approved fast and easy, Toepel said and added several levels of government would have to sign off on a proposal.
"That's a slippery slope as well," she said of legislation needed to plan for the road's future.
After the forum, Upper Pottsgrove Township resident Susan Ziemba -- who brought her son Alex, 11, to the event -- discussed her concerns on the issue.
"The misappropriation of funds from PennDOT," she said and gave an example of "excessive" work the state has done to Maugers Mill Road in her neighborhood. "They're actually working there right now, tonight."
Ziemba said she wants 422 to be made safe and convenient, but not at additional cost to area residents.
"I want to see it fixed," she said. "But I do not want to see tolls."
Janice Kearney, a candidate for Montgomery County's Lower Providence Township board of supervisors, said tolling 422 would be a mistake.
"(Residents) are against this ... tolling, especially if it involves the rail option," she said.
Tuesday's open dialogue was a healthy way to address the issue, she said.
"I think this forum was fantastic," Kearney said. "It was definitely a step in the right direction."
What are your thoughts on the outcome of the meeting?
Tell us in the comments.
Thanks. We'll email you the next time we update this story.
John from Oaks
10:12 am on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
Totally agree that tolling 422 is a bad idea.
From my perspective, three issues:
- Principle: Why should 422 commuters pay $60 million a year in extra tolls while other commuters on other roads do not? In effect, the tax dollars we already pay for roads will go to subsidize other commuters.
- Practical: People will try to avoid the tolls by taking local roads - Black Rock Road, Egypt, etc. These roads go through people's front yards and are ill-equipped to handle the volume.
- Property Value: If someone is considering buying a home in our area vs. an area without tolls, the home without tolls will be more attractive. This will force anyone selling a home in our area to lower selling prices to compensate.
Rajesh
1:51 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
Think you are missing the point on property values. The commute would help attract higher incomes (which are more concentrated closer to the city) to the area by making their commute easier. That will push property values up.
Rajesh
1:52 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
Another point is that we are already taxed because our fuel mileage is less in stop and go traffic and we lose time. The "net tax" may be much smaller than you think.
John from Oaks
1:53 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
I guess I'm not convinced the commute will get any easier with tolls.
As most people using 422 during rush hours to get to/from work, I don't expect traffic to really diminish once tolls are introduced (people still have to get to work!).
While a new Betzwood bridge would be nice, it will just move the bottleneck somewhere else..
Rajesh
2:31 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
I guess I should have stated that all tolls would need to go 422 improvements (not some sort of general fund). A better road should be faster - especially given how much land there is to expand the highway. A rail alternative would also help by taking cars off the road.
Mike Hays
12:10 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
I support the plan, not because I feel like having less disposable income, but because I believe this region must support its own needs into the future.
There is a reason the CEO Council for Growth and leaders of the Chamber of Commerce support this proposal --- it's good for jobs, as well as economic opportunity between Reading and Philadelphia.
As for the true cost of your toll: Please remember the daily price cited often in the media ($2.65) is for a one-way trip from Berks County all the way to King of Prussia. Most of us don't drive that far along 422.
Between Township Line Road (Limerick) and the Route 29 off-ramp, the cost is 80 cents one-way, according to 422 plus. That's $1.60 a day or $8 for a working week. Can we really not afford this, or are we not thinking of our future?
Local Yocal
1:30 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
Follow me here elected officials.
So I as an employer(the state) take money on your(the taxpayer) behalf to provide medical benefits(existing taxes). I use taht money for something else, or squander it. You/me(the taxpayer) should then for the common good, pay your medical premiums again out of pocket? Why would I not make the employer(the state) do their job? They would hold your/my(the taxpayer) feet to the fire? Yes? No?
Stephen Eickhoff
4:02 pm on Wednesday, September 14, 2011
So how many millions will it cost just to install the EZ-pass system? Note that the system will still need special cameras to support people who do not use EZ-pass. How often will the cameras entirely miss a plate, or even worse, misidentify one and send a bill to the wrong person?
Replace the Betzwood Bridge (we'll need help from our representatives in the US Congress to end the shenanigans by the US Park Service) and stop PENNDOT from wasting money on fixing roads that don't need to be fixed.
Local Yocal
6:08 pm on Friday, September 16, 2011
"In politics, representation describes how some individuals stand in for others or a group of others, for a certain time period. Representation usually refers to representative democracies, where elected officials nominally SPEAK FOR THEIR CONSTITUENTS in the legislature. Generally, only citizens are granted representation in the government in the form of voting rights; however, some democracies have extended this right further." OBVIOUSLY this Rt 422 deal is missing it. Taxation WITHOUT representation.
Local Yocal
6:09 pm on Friday, September 16, 2011
The people have spoken. Vote accordingly.
Rajesh
8:43 pm on Friday, September 16, 2011
The people have spoken? what have they said? I think they have said - we want a better road but we don't want to finance it through tolls. So which part of the people's statement should they pay attention to: "We want a better road" or "No tolls" - in the current political-economic environment, you simply can not have both.
Local Yocal
7:47 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
The people said not tolls. Now go back to the ivory tower and find another solution. Until then we will sit in traffic. We are already taxed to maintain roads. Use it tax wisely or raise THAT tax. Rt202 and other roads were fixed with that money. Rt422 should be the same. Period.
Stephen Eickhoff
12:23 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
In the current political environment, it would help if people didn't pose false dilemmas in their arguments. It goes without saying that other ways of funding this project would involve raising taxes or cutting spending. We already pay taxes on gasoline for highway maintenance. How about a big fat salary cut for all government employees so they can see how things are in the private sector when the state and federal governments meddle with the economy?
Rajesh
7:53 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
I love it - on this board we have come up with plan / options. All I hear from Vereb, Toeppel, Kampf, etc is no tolls. They should supplement that position with some of the points above and get it done!
Rajesh
7:59 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
One of the key developments in our country's greatness was the interstate highway system that allows for faster movement of people and goods. If it worked for the country as a whole, why wouldn't it work for us locally?
We are suffering (on a relative, not absolute basis) because we can not get from home to economic centers in Philly, KoP, Great Valley, etc efficiently during commuting hours thereby decreasing our ability to draw higher income individuals to live and shop in this area.
Local Yocal
10:09 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
That is a very good point. Indirectly my issue.
What bothers me is that Helen Keller could see the fraud waste and abuse in most programs on a local, state and and federal level? Why can't our ELECTED officials get see it?, stop it, and get the infrastructure and programs in line? Just one action will pay for Rt 422. Here is is. Start with Section 8, welfare, and food stamps. Review every case, landlord and tenant. The good ones will not have an issue. Prosecute the violators, cut off the aid, and seize property(cars, homes, and Xboxes) for repayment.
This is low fruit to pick. Imagine what is at the top of the tree.
Mike Hays
10:46 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
Rajesh - all great points.
Fellow commuters, fraud/waste &abuse will not fill the $3 billion annual shortfall across the state for infrastructure needs. Route 422 alone faces a roughly $400 M shortfall.
FACT: The federal gasoline tax has not been increased since 1993.
FACT: The state gasoline tax has not been increased since 1997.
Would you be able to budget your household without a salary increase since the 1990s? The cost of highway construction materials alone has increased 43 percent since 2003.
Stephen Eickhoff
1:31 am on Sunday, September 18, 2011
FACT: the federal tax is irrelevant, as it is used to pay for interstate highways.
FACT: The oil company franchise tax, which is also included in the cost of gasoline and diesel has changed many times since 1997, although it has not changed since 2006.
Local Yocal
11:22 am on Saturday, September 17, 2011
Why shouldn't we raise the federal and state gas tax then? The tax should have risen incrementally following the actual materials and labor cost projections each year.
On the other side of it, picture a taxpayer as the elected official in this story. As an elected offficial what you have on your plate now is the equivelent of not changing the oil in your car for 100000 miles. The costs of repairs have gone up 20 fold because you made bad choices along the way. No one else pays for that repair. You have to tighten your belt and find that money from within your budget. Your employer does not give you a raise because you made bad fnacial plans.
PrinceOfPrussia
3:41 pm on Saturday, September 17, 2011
Its a shame people don't live closer to where they work. This miles and miles of commuting is just bad all the way around. It wastes time and money.
Local Yocal
3:53 pm on Saturday, September 17, 2011
Amen, but that is what happens when we allow the jobs to leave the state and rural areas.